Theological Debate with Darwin Fish - Founder of "A True Church" Note - the messages might not be in the correct order ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 01:33:37 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Site All headers I was at DC2000 and took a picture of one of your protest signs. I recently visited your website, and I noticed that your beliefs are almost exactly like the teachings of the 19th century heretic and prophet Charles G. Finney. I am in a debate in a Puritan Church group where I am challenging their beliefs. I would like to point out some things in your writings that will hopefully show you that your beliefs might not be as "true" as you think. First of all, I go a non-denominational Christian church, LaGrange Bible Church, which takes all its teachings directly from the Bible. I am against all false teachings such as Mormonism, Catholicism, Puritanism, etc. I'll post the verses at the end of the message to prove my point. Here's my response: Most of it is Biblical until you get to the way to salvation. Now you might think I'm being unbiblical, but I'm not. >In other words, who may abide with God? Who goes to heaven? The answer? > >He who walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his >heart; he who does not backbite with his tongue, nor does evil to his >neighbor, nor does he take up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a >vile person is despised, but he honors those who fear the Lord; he who >swears to his own hurt and does not change; he who does not put out his >money at usury, nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does >these things shall never be moved. and so on. Notice that this verse does not have the word "saved" in it, but has the word "moved". Also you the section James 2:14-26 out of context; if you read it carefully, and the surrounding verses, it describes that people who preach the word of God should have studied the Word, obey God's commands, etc. It's not the way to salvation, but an outline on how a person can become a minister. >For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted >to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3) That's right, but that was in the Old Testament. The way of salvation went from devotion to God, to belief in Christ. In the Old Testament, when the people died, they were brought to Abraham's Bosom, where they waited until Christ was crucified, and then they were brought to Heaven (they were not perfect, and needed Christ's payment for sins for their salvation). They were chosen to be put into Abraham's bosom due to their complete trust and devotion to God. Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom more info here: http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html Also, most of the verses you took out of context; for example, you took a figurative statement relating to something else and showed it to be a literal statement The way to salvation (the verses after this will prove my point) is not due to obedience on the commandments or being sinless (which is impossible), it is by repenting sins, and then asking Christ into your life. Basically accepting Christ. Don't believe me? Read the verses: This is a post I made on a message board, and the message is called "Commandments and Salvation" Did you even mention Romans 10:9? That's the best one: ---------------------------------------------------------------- This verse shows the eternal meaning of the Commandments: Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. These verses show the way to salvation: Romans 10:9-13 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 Thess. 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Those verses are basically self explanatory here's another post: ------------------ Yes, I do agree with you on the commandments. Read this: Ok, here it is: 1. The law (commandments) do not privide salvation, but are guidelines on how to live life, and to make sinners conscious of sin: Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 2. Sinning will not doom us to hell (it will not take away our salvation): Romans 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 3. So, Christ died for us in our place. That last verse says that anybody who has died has been freed from sin. Have we died? Romans 7:9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. RO 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 4. How can Christ give us spiritual life? Rom. 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 4. So the law (commandments) convict us, and we spiritually die because of it. But, if we accept Christ, we become reborn in the Spirit: Romans 10:9-13 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. 5. If the law doesn't bring salvation should we just fall back into sin? RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 6. The "new life" means earthly life, a clean and Godly one. Do not obey the world. Also, sin can not overtake us anymore: RO 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 7. How does the Holy Spirit overtake our sinful desires? : RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 1 Thess. 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self- controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. ------------------------------------- This was one of my dozens of answers to the words of a follower of Charles G. Finney: CF99 says that the only way to heaven is by the commandments, which is wrong, but there's one noticable direct problem with what he's saying: ---------- >BUT WHY entering HEAVEN SO HARD,and JESUS told us we must bear the >cross to be saved??? Jesus actually said that?! Show me the verse! I've never even heard of that verse!!! He bore the cross! He payed for our sins! And that's that!!! >*CONDITION OF SALVATION AND DAMNATION:-TEN COMMANDMENTS >God made hell for wicked and unrepentant. GOD cant allow sins or >sinning people to heaven. >Please believe the Words of GOD about sins and sinners- >murder,stealing,adultery,lying,drunkness,cursing,disobeying parents-- >they SHALL destroy anyone who commits them,and send them to hell. >Breaking ten commandments-sinning >(murder,lying,blasphemy,greed,adultery,etc) >You must repent ALL ongoing sins,remove ALL sins from >your life-be it lust,bad magazines,drinking,smoking,stealing,using >drugs,cursing- and totally keep ten commandments. So now it's not just the commandments? Most of those aren't commandments! He said that the condition of salvation was the commandments, and then he said that the condition of salvation was all sin. Below he says that the condition of salvation is obeying parents. Make up your mind! Did you know that just being a sinful person is sinning? Just the action of being in a sinful world is sinning? Think about it. There is absolutely no way for man to be pure, unless he is God himself. We can "try" to be good, obey the commandments, but never ever be perfect. When Adam and Eve fell, they suddenly felt nekkid. We've felt that way all our lives, and we cover ourselves with clothes. If we're sinless, then we wouldn't need clothes at all, because we wouldn't know the difference between being clothed and being nekkid. Here's some excerpts from last posts by CF99: There's something wrong with that... >nobody is born in sinful nature in such as >way as to only capable to sin. and nobody is born again once >believed,that they nature changes as to never capable to sin again. >These are all fictions and false theology. Romans 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." >#3.INSTEAD OF REPENTING",think KEEPING COMMANDMENT: repenting is >merely,return to obediance. BUT,it is better for you to ask your kids >to OBEY ten commandment,than repent. ok... whatever... Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. >Then,He provides atonement in Jesus blood and calling us and forgives >us repeately. Repeatedly? God forgives sins ONCE FOR ALL > *TRUE PREACHER: warn the consequence of sins,Re-enforcing Holy >Spirit and Holy Spirit inspired BIBLE. >*FALSE PREACHER: to make you happy by assuring you of"salvation",and >make sin inevitable,and sinning nothing to do with salvation. According to the Bible it's the other way around... 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, So, you're saying that the Bible is false. That's nice to know. >At the end,you must be totally patient to keep GOD's commandments, >it is all about resisting hard temptations for future Glory. That's not in the Bible anywhere... Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. >So,you are in heavenly road ONLY AS LONG AS you are fully >obediant,and that makes it HARD! If that was the truth then there would be no point in Jesus's cricifixion, since He was God in the flesh... John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." >In this sense,daily family devotion is a CONTIDION of SALVATION. So in a few days worshipping Charles G. Finney will be a condition of salvation. This just gets weirder and weirder... John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." Hmmm... isn't CF99 rejecting Christ's offer of Salvation? I think so! ------------------------------------- So, read these verses and tell me what they're trying to point out. Ryan Thoryk ryan@tliquest.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:06:59 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: CC: "Tim Oren Elwood" , "Dickinson" To: "Darwin Fish" Subject: Re: Finney and more All headers >You also appear you did not read very well our statements on salvation. >But, be that as it may, your error on James 2 is gross. Nowhere does it say >anything about how to become a "minister" (i.e. pastor), and you missed the >justification by works in James 2:21, 24, 25 and the grand finale, James >2:26 - faith without works is DEAD. What I'm trying to say is that nowhere in there does it say that faith with works is salvation. It's showing how to live a spiritual life, as a Christian, and it's giving examples on the pre-Christ/post-Christ ways to Salvation. Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. Christ's salvation is grace through faith. Not faith alone. Not works alone. Faith alone does not save, and faith with works does not save either. Only grace through faith, which is the gift of God saves (ephesians 2:8-9). James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. Notice that is says that a person if justified by what he does. Abraham couldn't accept Christ in his time, because Christ hadn't been born yet. Also, notice these verses right after it: James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. So, in order to teach, we must follow God's word. James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. How do you get your hearts purified? Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, `Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or `Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1PE 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:57:43 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" CC: "Tim Oren Elwood" , "Dickinson" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: salvation All headers >You also appear you did not read very well our statements on salvation. >But, be that as it may, your error on James 2 is gross. Nowhere does it say >anything about how to become a "minister" (i.e. pastor), and you missed the >justification by works in James 2:21, 24, 25 and the grand finale, James >2:26 - faith without works is DEAD. What I'm trying to say is that nowhere in there does it say that faith with works is salvation. It's showing how to live a spiritual life, as a Christian, and it's giving examples on the pre-Christ/post-Christ ways to Salvation. Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. Christ's salvation is grace through faith. Not faith alone. Not works alone. Faith alone does not save, and faith with works does not save either. Only grace through faith, which is the gift of God saves (ephesians 2:8-9). James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. Notice that is says that a person if justified by what he does. Abraham couldn't accept Christ in his time, because Christ hadn't been born yet. Also, notice these verses right after it: James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. So, in order to teach, we must follow God's word. James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. How do you get your hearts purified? Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, `Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or `Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1PE 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. I follow the Words of Christ. I believe that Christ was God, and that he died on the cross for all of our sins. I believe that God raised Him from the dead. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I have confessed my sins, and accepted Christ's offer of salvation. Am I going to Heaven? Yes. Why? Because it's according to the scriptures: Romans 10:9-13 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. 5. If the law doesn't bring salvation should we just fall back into sin? RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 6. The "new life" means earthly life, a clean and Godly one. Do not obey the world. Also, sin can not overtake us anymore: RO 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 7. How does the Holy Spirit overtake our sinful desires? : RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 1 Thess. 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self- controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:04:05 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers Sorry I couldn't email you sooner. Some work issues came up. Anyway, on to the discussion. You responded with this sentence: > So, justified does not mean justified (James 2:21, 24, 25; > Romans 4:5)? and the name of your message was called "Justifed equals salvation" Do you really think that justification means salvation? That might be where I'm finding error in your writings. This is what the dictionary says about the word "justified": jus·ti·fy v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies. --tr. 1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid. 2. To declare free of blame; absolve. 3. Theology. To free (a human being) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used only of God. Notice that means "to be just", or "to become just". That means the same thing as "free[ing] (a human being) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Justification is the forgiveness of sins, not salvation. It means to "become just" with right. Here's what the Bible says about it, which shows what I'm trying to say: James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. Remember that "salvation" is achieved by "grace through faith", not faith alone, and not by works alone. So, faith does not save a person. Works does not save a person. Grace does: Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. 1 Peter 1:7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ----- So what you are saying is that a person is saved by "faith through works". The Bible says that a person is saved by "grace through faith". James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. To be saved, we must believe in Christ (faith) and accept (works) His offer of salvation (grace). For we cannot get God's grace if we do not ask for it. This verse directly explains it: John 6:62 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:14:42 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers Your last email reads, "Justification is the forgiveness of sins, not salvation." Ryan, take away the forgiveness of sins, and there is no such thing as salvation (Matthew 1:21)! To be justified equals salvation (e.g. Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39). And, by the way, "He became the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him" (Hebrews 5:9). In Christ, Darwin 661-510-6372 P. S. I agree with Ephesians 2:8-9. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:23:08 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: "Darwin Fish" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers Then what are you trying to say? That salvation is by faith and works together? Here's the types of salvation I've seen: Faith alone <-Catholicism, and others Works alone <- Finney Faith and Works <- you Grace <- me, also Bible phesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Salvation is by grace. Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace Ryan Thoryk ryan@tliquest.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:14:39 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers Did you read our article entitled, "Salvation Is Not By Works"? Did you read our article "What Must I Do To Be Saved?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:24:13 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: "Darwin Fish" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers I just read the "What must I do to be saved" section again, since the first time it was extremely unclear and very drawn out. Also, I know something is very wrong when you say that I'm going to hell. Every cult leader always makes that statement to people who don't follow "their beliefs", but follow the Bible directly without any other "interpretation". I believe that Christ is the Son of God (also God Himself, Triune) and he came and died for my sins. I have accepted Christ's offer of salvation when I was 4 years old, have repented, and have also recently been baptized. I know whithout a doubt that I'm going to heaven. Why? Because I believe what the Bible says. Directly. Since sin came into the world by one man, God sent a perfect man to save mankind. Now I know where you're coming from. There was a man who believed the same as you once. This is what I'm seeing from that page: You think that salvation is not "guaranteed" by God; or in other words, if a person falls away after they accept Christ, that they will go directly to hell. I noticed this because you never really mention that a person must accept God's offer of salvation, but you merely state that a person "must believe" I noticed this directly since you took a paragraph directly out of context: >In other words, who may abide with God? Who goes to heaven? The answer? >He who walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his >heart; he who does not backbite with his tongue, nor does evil to his >neighbor, nor does he take up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a >vile person is despised, but he honors those who fear the Lord; he who swears >to his own hurt and does not change; he who does not put out his money at >usury, nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these >things shall never be moved." That verse says "shall never be moved", not "be saved". >The answer? > >He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who has not lifted up his soul to an >idol, nor sworn deceitfully. (Psalm 24:4)" > >"Those who do evil go to hell (Psalm 11:6; Revelation 21:8). Therefore, we >must refrain our tongue from evil, our lips from speaking deceit, and we must >turn away from evil and do good." > >Finally, you must continue to believe, or you'll go to hell. Now why did I say that your beliefs were like Finney's? Because Finney states that you must constantly repent (become pure) in order to be saved. You state that you must always be obedient and repentant to be saved. Similarity? Finney also called most Christians "hypercalvanists" because he said they believed that once they accepted Christ, they were saved for eternity, and nothing could destroy that. So you really are like Finney after all! Why? Because you think salvation is by faith and works together. Grace is a permanent gift from God that grants us eternal salvation from the moment we accept it. Grace is not faith. Grace is not works. Grace is a gift from God. Here's verses that show that once you accept Christ you can never lose salvation: 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Romans 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. As for Finney's writings I posted, notice that HE himself is making the rules, and never gives God any credit whatsoever. Notice that there are no verses, and not once does he relate it to the Bible. He is saying "you must do this, you must do that, or else", while God says that preachers should not take it upon themselves, more like "God says you should not do this [verse to explain], and God says that you shouldn't do this either [another verse]." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:45:11 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Salvation cannot be lost All headers "Salvation is also spoken of in Scripture in the Greek Perfect tense, meaning saved in the past with the result that you keep on being saved forever." Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. 2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Rom 5:9,10,15,17,20 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, (NIV) Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all-- how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? (NIV) John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. (NIV) Psa 37:24 though he stumble, he will not fall, for the LORD upholds him with his hand. (NIV) 2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. (NIV) Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- (NIV) Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, (NIV) 1 Cor 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" (NIV) Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. (NIV) Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, (NIV) 1 Pet 1:4-5 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (NIV) 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV) Jude 24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- (NIV) 2 Cor 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (NIV) Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (NIV) Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (NIV) 2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." (NIV) Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-- whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (NIV) Hebrews 6:4-20 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case-- things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants." And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised. Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. (NIV) Acts 5:1-11 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. (NIV) Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (NIV) Ryan Thoryk ryan@tliquest.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:41:04 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers You said, "Also, I know something is very wrong when you say that I'm going to hell. Every cult leader always makes that statement to people who don't follow 'their beliefs', but follow the Bible directly without any other 'interpretation'". In this, you call Christ a cult leader. Because He said, - John 14:6. Regarding eternal security, I suggest you read our report with that title. You made no comment about our report entitled, "Salvation Is Not By Works." In Christ, Darwin 661-510-6372 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:34:43 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers You wrote, "The Bible says that losing faith brings personal problems, not damnation." Please show me this verse(s). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:36:05 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers "Please tell my why you think I'm going to hell. I would really love to hear your answer." I John 4:6 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:11:11 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: "Darwin Fish" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers Didn't you know that the New Testament wasn't written when Christ was living? You said that I called Christ a "cult leader", but I directly said "people who don't follow 'their beliefs', but follow the Bible directly." How could I ever be calling Christ a cult leader?! The teachings of Jesus are IN the Bible. If you read my statements more carefully, you would notice that I was referring to teachers AFTER the Bible was written. False prophets today prioritize their own beliefs above the words in the Bible. How could I be calling Christ a cult leader if He is the Word? The Word Is God! Also, I already read the report called "Salvation Is Not By Works." The problem is that in the other one you constantly point out that salvation is obtained by "obeying to the end" which is works, and contradicts the majority of your theology. Also, most of your verses were taken out of context. What I see is you preaching two different ways to salvation. You are basically saying "salvation is completely by God's grace, but we have to work and earn our way to it also." Why do I say that? Because you state that a person will go to hell if they do not stay completely steadfast in their faith. The Bible says that losing faith brings personal problems, not damnation. Please tell my why you think I'm going to hell. I would really love to hear your answer. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:17:01 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Fw: Salvation cannot be lost All headers Notice that in my message that I didn't say a single word of my own. The first sentence was a quote from a website, and the rest are pure verses. I cannot be taking the verses "out of context" since there are enough there to prove the point over and over again, clear as day. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:16:36 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers 1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. My answer: 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: I am of God. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:22:14 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers Based on your judgment, then I am of God too. Yet, in hyposcrisy, you call us a cult. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:54:12 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers > Based on your judgment, then I am of God too. Yet, in hyposcrisy, > you call us a cult. Why do I call your group a cult? >you call us a cult. You use the word "us" symbolizing your own church in that phrase. Here's where I've seen that before: >1. Are you the only true church/believers? > >We do not know. There was a church in Murfreesboro, TN, but that has since >dissolved. Other than that, we have not yet, as of this date >From a Mormon: >Ok for one Mormonism is not a cult. It is a Christian religion. >We believe our church to be the only true church of Christ. The Mormon uses "we". You use "us". I use "the Bible". Similarity? NO church is perfect, or completely "true", not even mine. Why? It's made up of imperfect people. No church is perfect. No man is perfect. The Bible is perfect, because it is the Word of God, and the Word is God. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:27:38 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers And Jesus said - John 14:6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:42:38 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers > You wrote, "The Bible says that losing faith brings personal > problems, not damnation." Please show me this verse(s). my statement of "personal problems" is one outcome of "stumbling" in the faith: John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. (NIV) Psalm 37:24 though he stumble, he will not fall, for the LORD upholds them with his hand. (NIV) Jude 24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- (NIV) Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (NIV) Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (NIV) John 10:27 says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me". 1John 3:9 says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". 1 John 3:9-Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:29:32 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers None of the verses you gave show a "losing faith" like what you were talking about, i.e. no longer believing in Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:35:15 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: visit this page All headers http://www.tliquest.net/ryan/cultchecklist.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:42:06 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: visit this page All headers So, you get your understanding from a man-made list. What folly (Matthew 15:8-9). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:32:16 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers This is what you're saying, or what I hear you saying: "A person is saved by believing in Christ and achieving perfect faith" That is faith plus works. The action of keeping the faith is works. Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (NIV) Once a person is saved, the Holy Spirit keeps them in line with God. Otherwise, if they are supposed to keep themselves in line by themselves, that's works, not grace. >None of the verses you gave show a "losing faith" like what > you were talking about, i.e. no longer believing in Christ. You should be able to see it in all the verses I've posted. There's even entire passages that make it clear, that state that we are given a new body through Christ, and the old one is destroyed, the moment we believe. Read all the verses over again and you'll see it. Jude 24 To him who is able to keep you from falling... The important word is "falling." Falling from faith, losing faith, etc; the holy spirit brings you back. I would suggest you read the Bible more carefully next time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:45:41 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Justifed equals salvation All headers Judge as you will (Matthew 7:1-2). But, did you even read our report on Eternal Security and Salvation Is Not By Works? Answer me. Can a saved person, one who is on their way to heaven, not practice righteousness? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:19:12 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: visit this page All headers >Judge as you will (Matthew 7:1-2). But, did you even read our report on >Eternal Security and Salvation Is Not By Works? Answer me. Can a saved >person, one who is on their way to heaven, not practice righteousness I read the report a while ago. Yes, a person can practice righteousness, not by themself, because of their sinful nature, but by the Holy Spirit. It looks like you are taking the broad way! Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Why is it so narrow? It's grace only; nothing else. You say that a person will deliberately fall away if they don't "try" to live up to their faith, but in reality the Holy Spirit holds them up (read all of my previous verses for that). Sounds like you're saying that grace, faith, and works all save a person together, while only grace is what saves. Also, did I every say that I get my understanding from that list?! I get my understanding from the Bible alone, and that list has been compared by me and others as it's relationship to Biblical truth. The list is there as something extra to help a person out: "It lists many hallmarks (identifying beliefs, practices, and so forth) of a theological cult." And you depend on the perfection and "truth" of your man-made church: >1. Are you the only true church/believers? > >We do not know. So, tell me why you state that your church, a man-made entity, is "true", and why your beliefs, which are also manly, are "true". Your site tries to explain that your church is true along with the Bible, but in reality only the Bible is true. Also, protesting at DC2000 was definately not funny. Thousands of people got truth directly from the Bible during that conference, and your group actually has the nerve to protest it. Now I know it's because of the "evangelical people", but if they teach directly out of the Bible, then wouldn't you really be protesting against God? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:32:01 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: visit this page All headers "You say that a person will deliberately fall away if they don't "try" to live up to their faith" Where did I say this? You attack that our church is not in the truth. Show me from our web site, anything we have said that is not according to the Word. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:27:22 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Problem with your position All headers >Eternal Security? Yes and No. That doesn't make any logical sense. You either have it, or you don't. Now, or never. In another perspective, this is what you said: >Everlasting life to believers? Yes and No. 2 Timothy 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:44:13 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Problem with your position All headers Logic? Proverbs 3:5-6 Sense? Romans 11:33 Did you even read the article? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:47:26 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Analysis All headers Analysis Christianity got "no" for all of them Here's my evaluations of your church: 1. Is it reluctant to reveal all its doctrines on request? no 2. Is it closed to inside/outside criticism? no 3. Does it place curses on those who disagree? no 4. Does it have practices or doctrines that are not found in the Bible? yes 5. Has it made prophecies that have not come to pass? no 6. Have its doctrines changed a lot over the years? no 7. Does it discourage or forbid its members to read other religious literature? yes 8. Does it claim divine authority to interpret the Bible for you? no 9. Does it teach that the Bible can not be understood apart from its own literature? no 10. Does it teach that its own traditions are of equal value with the Bible? no 11. Does it tell you the Bible is dangerous to read for yourself? no 12. Are any of its doctrines contradicted by the Bible? yes 13. Does it say that the Bible 'contains' the truth, but is not 'the whole truth?' no 14. Does it teach that all other Christian groups are false? yes 15. Is dissent discouraged, penalized, or punished? yes 16. Do the call all dissent 'sin, pride, or rebellion?' yes 17. Are members required to sever all ties with the past, or with family or previous religious friends? no 18. Does it have a totalitarian or dictatorial structure? no 19. Are its members financially exploited? no 20. Is fear a primary motivating factor in its teaching? yes 21. Does it teach that there is no salvation outside itself? yes 22. Does it say that the sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient, but that you must pay the price for your own sins? no 23. Does it ask you to pay for its prayers for dead loved ones? no 24. Does it profit from the sale and use of icons, a practice forbidden by the second commandment? no 25. Does it teach that Jesus was one of many saviors, avatars, or gurus? no 26. Does it teach that Jesus was just an angel, or some highly evolved human being? no 27. Does it have hidden, secret knowledge or rituals available only to its members. no 28. Does it offer something other than, or in addition to Jesus Christ as our Savior? no 29. Is attendance at its rituals mandatory, with damnation being the price of your failure? no 30. Does it make artificial distinctions between 'levels' of sin? no 31. Does it teach that you must 'expiate' (pay the price for) your own sins, thus negating the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ? no 32. Does it tell you to confess your sins to dead people in order to obtain forgiveness? no 33. Does it promote worship, or veneration of the dead? no 34. Does it claim its leader's pronouncements are perfect, irrevocable, and unchangeable? yes 35. Does it teach that sin can only be forgiven by its own representatives? no 36. Are its moral teachings based on its own code of law instead of the Bible? no 37. Does it keep you paying for years for the spiritual benefit of deceased loved ones? no 38. Does it tell you to pray for, or get baptized for the dead? no Your church got 9 according to my evaluation. Christianity got 0, Usually final numbers of 3 can possibly be a cult. Why? Contradiction to the Bible. Those terms above were checked in accuracy to the Bible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:05:26 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Analysis All headers You got some wrong, with your man-made standard. #3, 4 (you have shown NOTHING from our web site), 7, 12 (you've shown nothing from the web), 14, 15?, 16?, 21, 34, "Usually final numbers of 3 can possibly be a cult." Sounds like a good Biblical standard! What foolishness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:12:17 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Page on eternal security, with conclusion by me All headers >In other words, those who patiently and continually ("patient continuance" do >good ("doing good"), those who have good works ("who works what is good"), >those who make it their goal in life ("seek for", Philippians 3:11) to have >eternal life ("immortality"), these are the ones to whom God will save >("eternal life"). In other words, a person is saved by works. >Jesus' words prove certain that the actions of one's life (a person's deeds, >works) will dictate where a person will spend their eternity. Those who have >done good, will have eternal life. Those who have done evil, will go to hell. >Jesus similarly said, Same thing. >Here, people are sent to hell or granted eternal life solely based upon their >actions. Truly, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26), and truly God is >not mocked (Galatians 6:7-8). Same thing. >In Matthew 25:14-30 Jesus warns that if you are lazy (verse 26) and do not >bring to God a profit (verses 24-27) you will go to hell (verse 30). Having taken the verse out of context, you say that salvation is by profiting and giving. >Those born of God cannot sin, that is, they are incapable of practicing sin >(1 John 3:4-10). In other words, they will never fall back into a lifestyle >of sin. Now you're contradicting all your previous writings on that page >God simultaneously works the impossible. Those who are His, elect from the >foundation of the world, will indeed inherit eternal life. But, at the same >time, they must "work out [their] salvation with fear and trembling" >(Philippians 2:12). If they do not, they "cannot be saved." Another verse taken out of context. Cannot be saved? I don't see that anywhere in 2:12... Now you're saying that people can very easily become "unsaved" You also missed the verses after it... Philippians 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe --------------- Conclusion The writing never once talks about accepting Christ's offer of salvation, at least what I've seen. Also, it is very long, and contains very mixed and uncertain theology. Verses are rarely quoted, instead references are there. Non-existant sections are created to explain them. An average person visiting the site would leave very fast. Why? There is no foundation with your sayings. You are just bunching verses together and creating your own theology based on it. So, you are taking the broad way. Your way to salvation is long, confusing, erraneous, and in other words, broad. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:30:42 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Page on eternal security, with conclusion by me All headers Thank you for exposing yourself as a blatant rejecter of the Word of God. You clearly reject Romans 2:6-10 & John 5:28-29. You are under a curse (Psalm 119:21; 1 Corinthians 16:22/1 John 5:3). In Christ, Darwin 661-510-6372 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:00:50 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: Subject: visit this page All headers Cult Checklist? #3. "Does it place curses on those who disagree?" You say no (for Christianity). Indeed, for your false Christianity it is no. The answer for real Christianity is YES! Deuteronomy 27:26; Job 24:13-18; Psalm 119:21; Proverbs 3:33; 24:24; Jeremiah 17:5; 48:10; Lamentation 3:59-65; Galatians 1:8-9; 1 Corinthians 16:22/1 John 5:3. 4. Does it have practices or doctrines that are not found in the Bible? Welcome to modern "Christianity." E.g. church membership, age of accountability, 12 step programs, female pastors, the "essentials," Christmas celebrations (xmas trees, santa claus, yule tide, Dec. 25th, "merry christmas," etc.), ecumenism, agree to disagree on doctrine, church building projects, debt for land and/or buildings, nurseries, women's ministries, youth groups, friendship evangelism, self-esteem, "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner," "everyone who doesn't know Christ is lonely for His companionship" (Greg Laurie) people who lie, are immoral, and believe in sucking brains out of babies are saved and on their way to heaven (Billy Graham on Clinton), you can kill yourself and go to heaven (Chuck Smith), homosexuals will inherit the kingsdom of God (Billy Graham), people hunger for God (Graham), God is not mad at the wicked (Graham), etc., etc. 15. Is dissent discouraged, penalized, or punished? You say no, God says yes. Hebrews 6:6-8; 10:26-31. 18. Does it have a totalitarian or dictatorial structure? According to your standard, Jesus had the mark of a cult leader - John 14:6 20. Is fear a primary motivating factor in its teaching? You do just as the Word says people like you would do (2 Peter 2:2). Fear? Job 28:28; Psalm 34:11; 111:10; Isaiah 8:13; 66:1-2; Luke 12:4-5; etc. 27. Does it have hidden, secret knowledge or rituals available only to its members. Psalm 25:14; 91:1; Proverbs 3:32; Amos 3:7. 34. Does it claim its leader's pronouncements are perfect, irrevocable, and unchangeable? This is the case for every writer of Scripture, 2 Peter 1:20-21; 2 Timothy 3:16-17. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:26:35 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Analysis with site examples All headers Analysis Christianity got "no" for all of them Here's my evaluations of your church: 1. Is it reluctant to reveal all its doctrines on request? no 2. Is it closed to inside/outside criticism? no 3. Does it place curses on those who disagree? no 4. Does it have practices or doctrines that are not found in the Bible? yes >God simultaneously works the impossible. Those who are His, elect from the >foundation of the world, will indeed inherit eternal life. But, at the same >time, they must "work out [their] salvation with fear and trembling" >(Philippians 2:12). If they do not, they "cannot be saved." The phrase "cannot be saved" is not found in the verse. 5. Has it made prophecies that have not come to pass? no 6. Have its doctrines changed a lot over the years? no 7. Does it discourage or forbid its members to read other religious literature? yes shown hatred towards a cult analysis sheet 8. Does it claim divine authority to interpret the Bible for you? no 9. Does it teach that the Bible can not be understood apart from its own literature? no 10. Does it teach that its own traditions are of equal value with the Bible? no 11. Does it tell you the Bible is dangerous to read for yourself? no 12. Are any of its doctrines contradicted by the Bible? yes >Jesus' words prove certain that the actions of one's life (a person's deeds, >works) will dictate where a person will spend their eternity. Those who have >done good, will have eternal life. Those who have done evil, will go to hell. >Jesus similarly said, 13. Does it say that the Bible 'contains' the truth, but is not 'the whole truth?' no 14. Does it teach that all other Christian groups are false? yes >1. Are you the only true church/believers? > >We do not know. There was a church in Murfreesboro, TN, but that has since >dissolved. Other than that, we have not yet, as of this date (2-18-02), found >another church that is in the truth (1 John 4:6), and we have been to many. >Will we find one? Actually, the real question is, will Christ find one? 15. Is dissent discouraged, penalized, or punished? yes 16. Do the call all dissent 'sin, pride, or rebellion?' yes 17. Are members required to sever all ties with the past, or with family or previous religious friends? no 18. Does it have a totalitarian or dictatorial structure? no 19. Are its members financially exploited? no 20. Is fear a primary motivating factor in its teaching? yes Making "The Lord Kills" the primary statement on the site, putting God into a demonic light 21. Does it teach that there is no salvation outside itself? yes see #14 22. Does it say that the sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient, but that you must pay the price for your own sins? no 23. Does it ask you to pay for its prayers for dead loved ones? no 24. Does it profit from the sale and use of icons, a practice forbidden by the second commandment? no 25. Does it teach that Jesus was one of many saviors, avatars, or gurus? no 26. Does it teach that Jesus was just an angel, or some highly evolved human being? no 27. Does it have hidden, secret knowledge or rituals available only to its members. no 28. Does it offer something other than, or in addition to Jesus Christ as our Savior? no 29. Is attendance at its rituals mandatory, with damnation being the price of your failure? no 30. Does it make artificial distinctions between 'levels' of sin? no 31. Does it teach that you must 'expiate' (pay the price for) your own sins, thus negating the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ? no 32. Does it tell you to confess your sins to dead people in order to obtain forgiveness? no 33. Does it promote worship, or veneration of the dead? no 34. Does it claim its leader's pronouncements are perfect, irrevocable, and unchangeable? yes see #14 with #4 35. Does it teach that sin can only be forgiven by its own representatives? no 36. Are its moral teachings based on its own code of law instead of the Bible? no 37. Does it keep you paying for years for the spiritual benefit of deceased loved ones? no 38. Does it tell you to pray for, or get baptized for the dead? no Your church got 9 according to my evaluation. Christianity got 0, Usually final numbers of 3 can possibly be a cult. Why? Contradiction to the Bible. Those terms above were checked in accuracy to the Bible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:13:40 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Analysis with site examples All headers You state, "The phrase "cannot be saved" is not found in the verse." WHAT HYPOCRISY! YOU HAVE A WHOLE WEB PAGE THAT "is not found in the verse." ANY VERSE! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:55:25 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Page on eternal security, with conclusion by me All headers Also, thanks for showing yourself as a follower of Satan by protesting DC2000. Hundreds of people were saved there, thousands renewed their faith. Isn't that horrible? It must be to you. Also I didn't reject Romans 2:6-10, I just read it more carefully. You forgot all about verse 5. Read what it says. Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Unrepentant heart? Also, accepting Christ's offer of salvation IS seeking glory, honor and immortality. John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. Accepting and believing in Christ is doing good. Those will rise and live. You are saying that salvation is by works. Tell me where you got the phrase "cannot be saved" from: >God simultaneously works the impossible. Those who are His, elect from > the >foundation of the world, will indeed inherit eternal life. But, at the > same >time, they must "work out [their] salvation with fear and trembling" >(Philippians 2:12). If they do not, they "cannot be saved." And, you have cursed me, so I will add 1 point to the cult checklist results, to the section dealing with cursing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:02:15 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: visit this page All headers I just found a site mentioning your church. Is the last sentance in their description correct? Do you really believe that? >a true church >This group used to be called "God's Word Fellowship." The original name was >inappropriate enough, but the new name could hardly be less fitting. In the >first place, this is not a true church at all, but a cult based on the teaching >of one man-Darwin Fish (yes, that's his real name). In the second place, the >indefinite pronoun is misleading, because Darwin and his acolytes don't really >believe there are any other true churches out there. As a matter of fact, their >public "ministry" consists mainly of picketing churches and large evangelical >gatherings while handing out literature condemning all the best-known Christian >leaders and historical figures as heretics. Among their more serious errors, >they deny the doctrine of the Trinity and teach that God is human. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:23:59 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: visit this page All headers For Trinity, see "Where Do We Stand" Section V. For "human" see, "The Lord Is A Man." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:16:09 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: What? All headers You were excommunicated?! >Despite Darwin Fish's bold claims that he speaks as a "pastor," he is actually >an excommunicated layman who remains under the discipline of the church he >attended before he founded his own cult. This fact should be carefully borne in >mind by anyone tempted to give credence to his accusations against godly men. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:26:41 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: visit this page All headers Which web site is this from? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:17:18 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Analysis with site examples All headers > WHAT HYPOCRISY! YOU HAVE A WHOLE WEB PAGE THAT "is not found > in the verse." ANY VERSE! Ok. Prove it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:38:13 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Analysis with site examples All headers I did, in part, in my earlier response. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:36:50 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: visit this page All headers Where else than your own FAQ page made by another man! http://www.gty.org/~phil/articles/dfishfaq.htm As for the "trinity" stuff, that was already explained. With your emails, you proved yourself to be a thorn in God's word. Well, that site shows that you are just an excommunicated man who's full of himself... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:39:30 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: What? All headers According to the liars. I hadn't been going to the church for about a year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:42:48 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: What? All headers It doesn't matter. You're a liar, you distort the truth. Tell me, is there any other man on Earth that knows the "truth"? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:00:41 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: Subject: Fw: What? All headers yes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:49:48 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: This is nice too All headers Glad to see your church on a cult blacklist! http://www.gty.org/~phil/bookmark/realbad.htm And, you called a false prophet! http://www.cet.com/~voice/discern/god-man.htm Laughed at on this page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein/f00.html Thanks for letting the world know that you're a false prophet! You told thousands of people that when you protested DC2000! May God have mercy on your soul! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:52:59 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Your name says a lot about you All headers http://www.darwinfish.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:14:21 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Your name says a lot about you All headers Matthew 7:1-2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:04:23 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Fw: What? All headers Who? A friend of yours? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:17:39 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Fw: What? All headers There are several. Some I know. I can not speak of those whom I do not know. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:24:41 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Reaction All headers What's your reaction to those website and my mentioning of your heresy? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:30:36 -0700 From: "Darwin Fish" To: "Ryan Thoryk" Subject: Re: Reaction All headers 2 Peter 2:2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:42:04 +0800 From: "Ryan Thoryk" To: darwinfish@mail.direcpc.com Subject: Re: Reaction All headers You're right. That verse does clearly describe you- 2 Peter 2:2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. Thanks for blacklisting yourself as a heretic.